Polish frizzle questions

[urbanfrizzle]

Hi there!
I am new here, and have a few questions. I hope I am posting in the correct thread. I purchased some polish frizzle eggs who have just hatched. The woman had a mix of frizzled, and straight feathered birds. If my chicks have straight feathers, do they still carry the frizzle gene?

 

[Bunnylady]

Theoretically, no. Frizzle is a dominant gene, so if it's there, you should see it. Generally speaking, you don't want to breed two frizzled birds of any breed together, because a bird that inherited frizzling from both of its parents has very brittle feathers that break off easily (sometimes called a "frazzled"). If you don't want to see half-naked chickens running around, you don't breed frizzled to frizzled. If the breeder is being responsible, she isn't doing that, and some of the birds her Polish produce will be frizzled, and some will be smooth.

Notice that I said that you "should" see frizzled feathers on a bird with the frizzled gene. There are genes that modify just how well the frizzled gene gets expressed; some birds have very recurved feathers, and some have just a slight curl. It is supposed to be possible to have a bird that has the frizzling gene, and yet doesn't have the frizzled feathers - I don't know if anyone here has ever worked with one.

 

[MadamPoofyBrow]

Alright, I'm about to hit you with it, lol!
I work with frizzles of Silkies, Cochins, and hopefully soon Polish too.
Frizzling is a dominant gene. When a frizzle bird is bred to a smooth bird there will be 50% Frizzle and 50% smooth. The smooth birds carry the frizzling gene and will have a few frizzle chicks if bred back to a smooth. If bred back to a frizzle, they will have about 75% frizzle chicks. If a frizzle is bred to a frizzle they will have 100% FRAZZLE chicks. Never breed a frizzle to a frizzle, the chicks will go bald and require lots of extra care. It's just really hard on them. If you have a frazzle and breed it back to a smooth, 100% of the chicks will be frizzle.
So yes, a non frizzle chicken with the frizzling gene will have frizzle chicks as frizzling is dominant. I work with many birds who are smooth frizzles (The name of a bird who has one frizzle parent but is not frizzled themself) and they frequently throw frizzle chicks when bred to smooths. I usually breed them back to frizzles, which does not result in frazzles and results in many more frizzle chicks.
By a week old, you should know who's a frizzle. You'll eventually have to decide if you want your roos the be frizzles or your hens, cause you can't keep both together if you plan to hatch babies, unless you have two pens to ensure no frazzles. I have one rescues frazzle and she is super ugly, super sweet, and super hard to take care of. She's one of my faves though, lol! Got any pics of your chickies?

 

[Bunnylady]

Alright, I'm about to hit you with it, lol!
I work with frizzles of Silkies, Cochins, and hopefully soon Polish too.
Frizzling is a dominant gene. When a frizzle bird is bred to a smooth bird there will be 50% Frizzle and 50% smooth. The smooth birds carry the frizzling gene and will have a few frizzle chicks if bred back to a smooth. If bred back to a frizzle, they will have about 75% frizzle chicks. If a frizzle is bred to a frizzle they will have 100% FRAZZLE chicks. Never breed a frizzle to a frizzle, the chicks will go bald and require lots of extra care. It's just really hard on them. If you have a frazzle and breed it back to a smooth, 100% of the chicks will be frizzle.

I don't mean to be argumentative, but the math of this is wrong. The only way to get 100% frazzle would be to breed two frazzles together. If you breed two frizzles together, the ratios are 25% smooth, 50% frizzle, and 25% frazzle - and that's not just frizzled chickens, that's genetics 101. That doesn't mean 3 frazzled chicks in one hen's clutch of a dozen eggs, it means that, if you did this cross enough times to get thousands of offspring, this is what the totals would average out to. In that hypothetical clutch of a dozen from a frizzled roo' over a frizzled hen, you could get all frazzles, or all smooth, or all frizzles, or any combination of the 3; the sample group is too small to be statistically significant.

But to say that breeding two birds with the frizzled gene together (whether they are frizzled or smooth) will result in 75% frizzled and NO frazzled across the board flies in the face of the rules Mendalian genetics - it's just not possible. Pure dumb luck might have it play out that way within your flock, or something might be causing the frazzled chicks to die in the egg, but given a large enough sample group, there must be some that get the frizzled gene from both parents - that's just the way it works.

 

[urbanfrizzle]

Ok, So I am new to the whole frizzle scene, but I'd like to get a nice flock going for breeding. I DO know not to breed frizzle to frizzle. I'd like my hens to be frizzle, and have smooth roosters. I have four polish chicks, and I am thinking they may all be smooth.. So that's why I am asking if they can still have frizzled chicks, with a smooth rooster. I am thinking about selling them if they are smooth.

 

[MadamPoofyBrow]

I don't mean to be argumentative, but the math of this is wrong. The only way to get 100% frazzle would be to breed two frazzles together. If you breed two frizzles together, the ratios are 25% smooth, 50% frizzle, and 25% frazzle - and that's not just frizzled chickens, that's genetics 101. That doesn't mean 3 frazzled chicks in one hen's clutch of a dozen eggs, it means that, if you did this cross enough times to get thousands of offspring, this is what the totals would average out to. In that hypothetical clutch of a dozen from a frizzled roo' over a frizzled hen, you could get all frazzles, or all smooth, or all frizzles, or any combination of the 3; the sample group is too small to be statistically significant.

But to say that breeding two birds with the frizzled gene together (whether they are frizzled or smooth) will result in 75% frizzled and NO frazzled across the board flies in the face of the rules Mendalian genetics - it's just not possible. Pure dumb luck might have it play out that way within your flock, or something might be causing the frazzled chicks to die in the egg, but given a large enough sample group, there must be some that get the frizzled gene from both parents - that's just the way it works.

And I don't mean to be wrong, but I've bred frizzles for years and that's whe way it's always turned out for me. With the smooth frizzles frizzle frizzles, those were the percentages I've always gotten.
I have NEVER bred a frizzle to a frizzle though, but I have toalked to two pwople who had an accidental breeding and all the chicks were frazzles. I got one of them, and all her chicks are frizzles. She's bred to a smooth frizzle roo. I've never gotten a frazzles. I'm not a gene expert at all and I've not done much research except to know who not to cross with who. I'm just tossing out the numbers I've gotten over about five years from keeping track of all of the chicks. Things are probably different for every bird.
But what I was trying to get across and answer urban's question, is that smooth frizzles can and do have frizzled chicks. I know this for a fact. Not a high percentage of frizzle chicks, but frizzle chicks just the same.
And I always get hatch rates of at least ninety so I know it's not because chicks of one variety are dying in the egg.

 

[Bunnylady]

College courses and 30 years' experience with breeding rabbits aside, I'm no expert on genetics, either. And my experience with breeding frizzles has been very different from yours. I had some frizzled Cochin eggs shipped to me several years ago. Of the dozen eggs, 9 hatched (not bad for shipped eggs!). Only two, both roosters, turned out to be frizzles; of those, one hatched with only one wing, so he was obviously not going to be used as a breeder. The remaining frizzled rooster was being picked on severely by his smooth Cochin brothers, so I separated him so he could heal up. While in isolation, he was killed by a raccoon. I didn't do a lot of breeding (I have lots of other things keeping me very busy) but I have never gotten a frizzled chick from the remaining smooth birds.

From the same breeder, I also wound up with two frizzled Polish hens. Bred to a smooth rooster, I got two Frizzled Polish roosters, but before I could get some smooth hens to breed them to, they died during a Fowl Pox outbreak that happened here a couple of years ago. I have had no luck at all breeding frizzles; with everyone quaking in their boots over AF, I have no intention of adding to my flock at this time. I only have one frizzled Polish hen at this time, and she's an egg-eater, so I don't expect I'll get any further offspring from her. Nothing would surprise me more than to get a frizzled chick from my remaining Cochins. After all this time, I think I can fairly assume that even the ones that had a frizzled parent do not have the frizzled gene.

 

[MadamPoofyBrow]

Maybe it has something to do with how strong the gene is? my smooth frizzles have come from six generations of breeding smooth frizzles to frizzle frizzles. Maybe they have a stronger frizzling gene in them?
I honestly don't know, but am very surprised that you've never gotten any frizzlies from your Cochins. But one other thing I've learned is that the majority of the frizzles are roosters. It's really weird and I don't understand it. But I'm guessing getting frizzles from smooth frizzles may have something to do with stronger and weaker genes.

 

[Sonoran Silkies]

The only way that a smooth bird can pass the frizzling gene to its offspring is if it also carries two copies of the frizzle modifier gene. This gene "unfrizzles" the feathers, so that a bird does not appear to be frizzled, although genetically they are.

A simple punnet square will show the correct ratios that Bunnylady stated. However, this is ignoring the frizzle modifier. How common it is or is not has been up for discussion for years. I would suspect that MadamPuffyBrow's flock has many with the frizzle modifier gene, including some who carry 2 copies of frizzle, but appear to have only a single copy because they also have two copies of the modifier gene.

 

[MadamPoofyBrow]

I was hoping you'd get in on this Sonoran, as I concider you a gene expert

I just don't understand some of your terms...does double drizzle gene mean that the smooth birds frizzle parent accrually a frazzle in disguise, or that their grandparents was a drizzle and a smooth and their smooth offspring were bred back to drizzles making them have at least two generations of drizzling genes? As far as I know I only have the one rescue frazzle. I do not breed drizzle to drizzle. But I have bred a smooth drizzle back to a drizzle the children of this cross are the ones I have now who are smooth and throwing drizzle chicks when crossed with smooth birds.
Auto correct keeps saying drizzle, Just pretend it starts with f