Why do gamebirds need higher protein?

[nuthatched]

Tell me more about chickens (layers) needing 18-20 % protein.

From what I’ve read Roosters need substantially less. I’m having a hard time balancing the flock feed needs since I obtained roosters. (Less calcium less protein)

I need help!

Where did you read that? Considering that roosters have feathers, flesh and need protein too, that sounds dubious.

 

[nuthatched]

Are coturnix quail considered game birds even though they are domesticated more than parrots?

Yes. They're still game. They do not behave like domestic fowl and do not have eons of selected breeding to make them lazy.

 

[The Good Grumble]

I am unaware of research that says roosters need less protein. Many feed an all flock feed or grower feed for higher protein and less calcium to their chickens. Oyster shells or another calcium source are fed on the side for laying hens.

I went into a rabbit hole. I have the source I need for hens. I’ve been exclusively looking into roosters for a bachelor flock and formulation of my own feed for my flock.

For Roosters. 11.5% Greenacre, “Backyard Poultry Medicine and Surgery: A guide for Veterinary Practitioners.” (I read this a few days ago on another chicken group which started all this for me)

I am currently finishing reading this paper

The effect of dietary crude protein on the fertility of male broiler breeders
N.C. Tyler# & H.A. Bekker
Animal and Poultry Science, University of KwaZulu-Natal, Scottsville, 3209, Pietermaritzburg, South Africa

This one shows that at 12.5 percent roosters have a longer fertile range…. (They used for the study 10.5%, 12.6% and 15%)

There’s a couple more I will be getting into. A lot of the resources are on broiler farms. And I would suppose if your rooster isn’t on active duty then the requirements may be different. But what I am gathering from everything is that roosters need a lower amount of protein and of course calcium.

 

[Chicken_tiger_catt]

Are coturnix quail considered game birds even though they are domesticated more than parrots?

I would say so.

 

[HollowOfWisps]

I went into a rabbit hole. I have the source I need for hens. I’ve been exclusively looking into roosters for a bachelor flock and formulation of my own feed for my flock.

For Roosters. 11.5% Greenacre, “Backyard Poultry Medicine and Surgery: A guide for Veterinary Practitioners.” (I read this a few days ago on another chicken group which started all this for me)

I am currently finishing reading this paper

The effect of dietary crude protein on the fertility of male broiler breeders
N.C. Tyler# & H.A. Bekker
Animal and Poultry Science, University of KwaZulu-Natal, Scottsville, 3209, Pietermaritzburg, South Africa

This one shows that at 12.5 percent roosters have a longer fertile range…. (They used for the study 10.5%, 12.6% and 15%)

There’s a couple more I will be getting into. A lot of the resources are on broiler farms. And I would suppose if your rooster isn’t on active duty then the requirements may be different. But what I am gathering from everything is that roosters need a lower amount of protein and of course calcium.

Those studies were done on broilers. Broilers require a different feeding program than other breeds. Broilers have extreme health problems and grow too quickly due to humans selectively breeding them to get as big as possible as quick as possible. That is why they are finding higher fertility rates with lower protein. High protein diets with broilers causes them to grow faster than their organs can keep up resulting in health complications which then result in lower fertility rates. Fast growth is fine if you plan on butchering young, but not for long term health. Comparing the health and dietary requirements of broilers to non-meat hybrids is apples to oranges.

 

[nuthatched]

I went into a rabbit hole. I have the source I need for hens. I’ve been exclusively looking into roosters for a bachelor flock and formulation of my own feed for my flock.

For Roosters. 11.5% Greenacre, “Backyard Poultry Medicine and Surgery: A guide for Veterinary Practitioners.” (I read this a few days ago on another chicken group which started all this for me)

I am currently finishing reading this paper

The effect of dietary crude protein on the fertility of male broiler breeders
N.C. Tyler# & H.A. Bekker
Animal and Poultry Science, University of KwaZulu-Natal, Scottsville, 3209, Pietermaritzburg, South Africa

This one shows that at 12.5 percent roosters have a longer fertile range…. (They used for the study 10.5%, 12.6% and 15%)

There’s a couple more I will be getting into. A lot of the resources are on broiler farms. And I would suppose if your rooster isn’t on active duty then the requirements may be different. But what I am gathering from everything is that roosters need a lower amount of protein and of course calcium.

Broilers are different than your normal chicken, they're designed to put on muscle quickly.
if they're not a restricted diet, they'll get so heavy, their legs will give out and organs fail.
They're also not intended to live more than a few months.
These studies don't apply to your average dual purpose birds, such as what most people have as their flocks.
95% (and that's likely a conservative number) of studies will be on industrial chicken keeping: various strains of meat birds that don't live over 6 months and layer pullets, which are culled before18 months.

 

[TwoCrows]

Are coturnix quail considered game birds even though they are domesticated more than parrots?

Yes domesticated or not, all Quail are considered Gamebirds.

 

[TooCheep]

Tell me more about chickens (layers) needing 18-20 % protein.

From what I’ve read Roosters need substantially less. I’m having a hard time balancing the flock feed needs since I obtained roosters. (Less calcium less protein)

I need help!

Understand that chicken have been some of the most micro-studied of all animals for nutrition. That is because they are such a large part of our food system and (when factory farmed) are 100% controlled. You can't even say that about cows that eat primarily grass, but also a lot of semi-random greens for the majority of their life. Only later in life are many cows grain fed to fatten them up for slaughter.

Now, think about exactly why they are studying chicken nutrition so closely. What are their goals? They want low cost and high volume production, both for eggs and meat. All of the chicken nutrition guidelines are based on these factory farming priorities.

What aren't they concerned about in these studies? Long-term health of the birds, humane growing practices and optimized nutrition from the resulting eggs/meat. Many backyard chicken owners put higher priority on these aspects of chicken raising.

Unfortunately, we don't have nearly as much info on ideal nutrition for these additional priorities, mostly just tons of anecdotal experience. Protein levels are simply the most visible nutrient that we try to optimize.

As others have mentioned, I also follow the all-flock + calcium feed method to try to improve nutrition beyond the factory farm minimums.

----

Humans can can and do also survive on less-than ideal nutrition. They will just have stunted growth, intelligence/psychological issues, poor health, reproductive problems and/or shorter lifespan. The US RDAs (recommended daily allowance) are exactly the same as the chicken nutrient recommendations: minimum, not optimal.

One concrete example: the US RDA is 150 micrograms of iodine/day. Why that level? Too many American men were rejected from military service in WW1 due to goiter (inflamation of the thyroid) from low iodine. They established the 150 microgram minimum to prevent goiter, not optimize health. Iodine is used in every cell of the human body and we would die without it.

Lower (RDA approved) iodine levels are heavily tied to thyroid insufficiency, breast cancer and many other health problems. I take 5,000 micrograms of iodine/day (33x the US RDA) due to all I've read on the subject. It is definitely possible to consume some nutrients to the point of toxicity, but excess iodine just gets peed out.

I wish we had better info for optimizing nutrition, but optimal health doesn't drive profits, so that isn't what's studied- for chickens or humans.

 

[The Good Grumble]

Those studies were done on broilers. Broilers require a different feeding program than other breeds. Broilers have extreme health problems and grow too quickly due to humans selectively breeding them to get as big as possible as quick as possible. That is why they are finding higher fertility rates with lower protein. High protein diets with broilers causes them to grow faster than their organs can keep up resulting in health complications which then result in lower fertility rates. Fast growth is fine if you plan on butchering young, but not for long term health. Comparing the health and dietary requirements of broilers to non-meat hybrids is apples to oranges.

It’s also in the veterinary manual, yes the study I read is broilers, and yes on fertility. What makes a traditional rooster in a backyard flock any different? Except - a broiler would need faster growth. So maybe the veterinary manual is closer with the lower protein?

 

[The Good Grumble]

Broilers are different than your normal chicken, they're designed to put on muscle quickly.
if they're not a restricted diet, they'll get so heavy, their legs will give out and organs fail.
They're also not intended to live more than a few months.
These studies don't apply to your average dual purpose birds, such as what most people have as their flocks.
95% (and that's likely a conservative number) of studies will be on industrial chicken keeping: various strains of meat birds that don't live over 6 months and layer pullets, which are culled before18 months.

Wouldn’t that make sense that they would need slightly higher protein under those conditions? Vs our backyard males we *don’t need to grow at a faster rate, and we *do want optimal fertility for breeding programs.