Why do gamebirds need higher protein?

[MysteryChicken]

I cited my sources in an earlier post.

For Broilers, a 4 way Meat cross chicken that's bred to grow big fast. Nothing to do with heritage type chickens that actually requires high protein.

If you wanna feed your birds an inadequate diet, you'll understand soon enough how higher is better for them.

 

[NatJ]

Do you have any studies or citations for your opinion? I don’t mean that to be disparaging. I’ve been reading a lot and I’m open to finding alternative information on the protein requirements for a rooster. Thus far in veterinary manuals and studies I have not seen anything pop up. I’m working on formulating feed currently which is why all my questions to the community. I know someone here will have some data I haven’t dug up yet!

https://www.hyline.com/filesimages/Hy-Line-Products/Hy-Line-Product-PDFs/W-36/36 PS ENG.pdf

If the link works, it goes to a .pdf from the Hy-Line company about raising the parent stock for the laying hens they sell. If the link does not work, try an internet search for Hy Line Parent Stock Management Guide.

It talks about many details, including the correct feed at each age.
On page 13 it discusses some specific details about the males, including the statement "Males and females should receive the same feed and lighting schedule."

https://lohmann-breeders.com/management-guide/parent-stock-download/
Has a link to download a "Parent Stock Management Guide" for the parent stock that produce some of the laying hens they sell.
On page 9, it says "Males and females should be reared together from the first day."
I do not find anything calling for separate feeding.
I do find charts of what the feed should provide (percent protein, along with many other details).

https://layinghens.hendrix-genetics.com/en/news/check-out-the-revised-parent-stock-guide/
Has a link to download a Parent Stock Management Guide.

I am pretty sure there are other Parent Stock Management Guides available, from other companies and/or for other specific lines of birds that they raise, but this was as many as I felt like tracking down right now.

In general, I would trust a company producing high-performance hybrids to be a good source of information about the nutritional needs of their particular strain of chickens.

The studies I have read have been a low ratio of hens to roosters, longevity was pronounced along with high fertility rates. That makes sense right? Rearing an an animal up to sexual maturity takes time. Also takes good breeding selection and money. If farmers are faced with higher mortality they are spinning their wheels with having to need a constant resource to replace animals. Thus money, and consequently losses in production. The end goal being a healthy breeding stock that lasts.

Did they state what length of time was involved in that "longevity"? Are they talking weeks, months, years?

The commercial producers care about health and longevity only up to the point when they would kill the birds or otherwise dispose of them.

For broiler-type chickens, "normal" lifespan is about 8 weeks. Laying hens, along with breeding stock for broiler chickens or layer chickens, are expected to live about 18 months, maybe up to 2 years. Past that point, longevity and health no longer matter to the commercial producer.

For someone raising a backyard flock, they often hope for lifespans of 3-5 years or more, which is past the point that any commercial producer would care about or study.

Regarding males of broiler types: in order to live and breed, they need their growth deliberately stunted by an inadequate diet. The trick is to get it the right amount deficient, so they do live and breed but do not develop the enormous size that is wanted in birds for butchering, and the health problems that come with it.

 

[The Good Grumble]

For Broilers, a 4 way Meat cross chicken that's bred to grow big fast. Nothing to do with heritage type chickens that actually requires high protein.

If you wanna feed your birds an inadequate diet, you'll understand soon enough how higher is better for them.

Fair enough, but isn’t it good to have an open discussion?

This was the first resource Rooster recommend 11.5% protein .75% Calcium - I’m specifically asking about roosters here. Not laying hens which are vastly different. Right?

Backyard Poultry Medicine and Surgery: A Guide for Veterinary Practitioners, 2nd Edition​

Cheryl B. Greenacre (Editor), Teresa Y. Morishita (Editor)
ISBN: 978-1-119-51175-5
July 2021
Wiley-Blackwell

 

[nuthatched]

Do you have a source for this? Or is this opinion based. I’m really trying to look at this scientifically with research. That would be super helpful!

I believe the the 16% protein for layer was from the 60s/70s, that's why I referred to it as antiquated. Today's chickens get twice a large, twice as fast and lay twice as much, but the industry feed standard is just now being pushed up to 17-18% for layers, typically for independent farms that supply brands.
To be frank, my opinion is an educated one because at this point, I can't remember where I found the original papers for many things.

However, any research studies I've ever read on chickens start by listing the typical industrial parameters, i.e "Forty-five 3 week old pullets fed X, raised in Y space and slaughtered at Z weeks old" to research various things.

I've never seen any study that encouraged the birds to live more than a year, most of my research is feed supplements and wormers.

 

[MysteryChicken]

Fair enough, but isn’t it good to have an open discussion?

This was the first resource Rooster recommend 11.5% protein .75% Calcium - I’m specifically asking about roosters here. Not laying hens which are vastly different. Right?

Backyard Poultry Medicine and Surgery: A Guide for Veterinary Practitioners, 2nd Edition​

Cheryl B. Greenacre (Editor), Teresa Y. Morishita (Editor)
ISBN: 978-1-119-51175-5
July 2021
Wiley-Blackwell

I know, I responded about roosters on another post, but also responded about the source you posted.

11.5% protein will leave malnourished roosters, & malnourished, very under productive hens.
My grandpa fed a similar diet, of just corn, corn/wheat, with the occasional layer mash mixed in. His birds were very skinny, with only a small layer of fat in the breast.

Post in thread 'Why do gamebirds need higher protein?' https://www.backyardchickens.com/threads/why-do-gamebirds-need-higher-protein.1644960/post-28123690

 

[U_Stormcrow]

Fair enough, but isn’t it good to have an open discussion?

This was the first resource Rooster recommend 11.5% protein .75% Calcium - I’m specifically asking about roosters here. Not laying hens which are vastly different. Right?

Backyard Poultry Medicine and Surgery: A Guide for Veterinary Practitioners, 2nd Edition​

Cheryl B. Greenacre (Editor), Teresa Y. Morishita (Editor)
ISBN: 978-1-119-51175-5
July 2021
Wiley-Blackwell

Query. Honest one.

Why do you think that's a reliable source?

Yes, I get that Cheryl B Greenacre is at U of Tenn Knoxville
Yes, I get that she's published a lot of papers.
Oddly, I'm not finding much on chickens. Actually, I'm finding no research by her on chickens. She's a generalist. Perhaps a very qualified generalist, but her research focus isn't nutrition.

Go back to the chapter you are relying on. Who is SHE citing for the basis of her opinion? Let's go back to the source.

and yes, the nutritional needs of breeding stock Roos for meatbird lines of Cx (i.e Cobb-Vantive 500s, Ross 308s, etc) are radically different thann most everything else because - as others have correctly pointed out above - they are deliberately starved to retard a rate of body growth genetically engineered to result in large, tender birds on dinner tables at very young age. That same engineering via selective breeding results in extremely low "natural" fertility, however. The same diet that powers that incredible growth rate is contrary to prolonged life or reasonably successful rates of reproduction.

The answer, btw, is that she is largely relying on research from Hocking in 1990 (Hocking, P. M., 1990. The relationships between dietary crude protein, body weight, and fertility in naturally mated broiler breeder males. Br. Poult. Sci. 31:743-757.) and perhaps Siviera (Silviera, M. M., A. Freitas, C. Moraes, F. Gomes, F. Litz, J. Martins, N. Fagundes, and E. Fernandes, 2014. Feeding management strategy for male broiler breeders and its effects on body weight, hatchability and fertility. Braz. J. Poult. Sci. 16:397-402) last decade. Because they are about the only studies out there not in the control of Cobb-Vantive, Ross, and the rest.

and they are specific to the highly genetically selected Cx class of birds, "broilers".

If you will forgive the anecdote, I've raised Cx. The only time they moved from the food was to get a drink. They were too fat, ungainly, uninterested, and slow to have any hope of successfully mating a more "normal" hen, even if they could mechanically make the correct contact. I ended up breeding a Cx hen via a "regular" rooster - she didn't have much choice, too ungainly to run away...

Conveniently, the above studies agree w/ my anecdote. Here's the money line from the second study:

The fertility of broiler breeder flocks declines during the last phase of their reproductive life (Creel et al., 1990; Walsh & Brake, 1997). This is mainly due to the progressive reduction of mating efficiency and frequency (Duncan et al., 1990), which has been attributed to excessive weight gain in males (Hocking, 1990; Hocking & Bernard, 2000).

I commend you for doing your reading, but its is very important to keep in mind the limits of the research. What is applicable to one situation is not necessarily applicable to all others.

and were you to make a study of the collective anecdotes of those of us feeding "conventional" barnyard mixes, dual purpose, and "heritage" breed roosters, a suspect the vast majority of us would report that our roosters respond to a relatively high CP "all flock"-type formulation feed by...

...eating less.

Cx, on the other hand, seem to have had the signal that tells their body that it's need have been met "turned off".

Hope that helps maybe a little?

 

[U_Stormcrow]

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