Need help planning blue barred/cuckoo genetics

[Oldegarlicshnapp]

I’m a total rookie so please correct me where I’m wrong.

So the idea is:
• Male barred + female blue = female blue bar
• Female barred + male blue = male blue bar
• female and male blue bar = homogynous

My bird of choice is the ko shamo. I know of a breeder that sells blue wheaten’s, but then there’s that red aspect.
I was told by a breeder that used to have blues (solid) that he got them from the blue wheaten (please explain how), but an easier way to get them is to breed black and white. Then there’s my concern that since blue x blue from black/white mix results in splash… but then that direct result blue will have black and white genes to mix. Maybe?

My uncle wants to go a step further and breed his ko’s with a modern game bantam and gauges three years to work it back into proper ko shamo body. Idk about that and he’s already given up on the project for now.

This is the great blue I found, but unfortunately the line is gone:

Is there anyone who knows how I can get this color? Maybe as stable as I can, unless since black/white is technically a black bird I never can. I don’t know how you’d get straight blue from a blue wheaten.

 

[NatJ]

I don’t know how you’d get straight blue from a blue wheaten.

Sometimes people say "blue" to mean a chicken that is blue all over.
Sometimes they say "blue" to mean the blue gene, that turns black to a gray shade.

If someone bred a black chicken to a blue wheaten, they should get some blue chicks because the one parent gives the genes to make a black chicken, and the other can give the gene to turn the black color into blue. Such chicks would be "blue" in both meanings: have the blue gene, and blue all over.

• female and male blue bar = homogynous

Vocabulary:
"homogynous" is not the word you mean. I'm guessing it's a typo, or maybe auto-correct messed it up.

"homozygous" is a chicken that has two of the same genes (2 barring or 2 not-barring)

"heterozygous" is a chicken that has a mis-matched pair of genes (1 barring, 1 not-barring)

"hemizygous" is a chicken that has one of the gene, and cannot have a second of any kind (used to discuss any gene on the Z chromsome of a hen, because hens have sex chromosomes ZW.)

The barring gene is on the Z sex chromosome.
Males have ZZ, females have ZW.
So a flock of 100% barred birds will have homozygous males and hemizygous females, and will never produce not-barred chicks.

Breeding a barred male to a not-barred female will produce hemizygous barred daughters and heterozygous barred sons (sons carry not-barring, daughters don't carry anything.)

Breeding a barred female to a not-barred male will produce the same heterozygous sons, but will produce hemizygous not-barred daughters.

So the idea is:
• Male barred + female blue = female blue bar
• Female barred + male blue = male blue bar
• female and male blue bar = homogynous

The offspring you list are not the only ones you can get from those pairings. So I assume you mean they are the ones you will choose for breeding the next generation.

Yes, that would work.

You could get blue barred in both genders from the first cross (with the barred father), and breed siblings together instead of making a separate cross with different parents to produce a male. (But you might want to do the second cross to have more genetic diversity.)

Yes, breeding a blue male with barring and a blue female with barring will produce some blue male chicks that are homozygous for barring, and some female chicks that are hemizygous for barring. Continuing to breed from them will produce only barred chicks, although the blue part of the color will not breed true. You will get black barred, blue barred, and splash barred every time you breed from two blue barred chickens.

Your first cross, with a barred father and a blue mother, also produces hemizygous blue barred females. So that second generation is only really needed to get a homozygous male.

To add new genetics in future generations, cross a barred male to a solid black female, and add the barred daughters to your breeding group.

I was told by a breeder that used to have blues (solid) that he got them from the blue wheaten (please explain how), but an easier way to get them is to breed black and white.

If the white chicken also has the blue gene, yes that will work. Not all white chickens have the blue gene, but I will assume that the breeder knew it was present in the white birds he was talking about.

Then there’s my concern that since blue x blue from black/white mix results in splash… but then that direct result blue will have black and white genes to mix. Maybe?

If we discuss only the blue gene, and ignore everything else:
2 not-blue genes makes black (homozygous not-blue)
1 blue gene, 1 not-blue gene makes blue (heterozygous)
2 blue genes makes splash (homozygous blue)

So breeding a black to a splash makes 100% blue chicks
(The splash parent gives a blue gene to every chick, the black parent gives a not-blue gene to every chick, so every chick has exactly one blue gene and looks blue)

Breeding black x blue makes 50% black, 50% blue
(The blue parent gives a blue gene to half the chicks, and a not-blue gene to the other half of the chicks. The black parent gives a not-blue gene to every chick. So half the chicks have blue/not-blue and look blue, and half the chicks are homozygous not-blue and look black.)

Breeding blue x splash makes 50% blue, 50% splash
(The splash parent gives a blue gene to every chick, the blue parent gives a blue gene to half and a not-blue gene to half. So half the chicks have two blue genes and look splash, the other half the chicks have a blue and a not-blue and look blue.)

Breeding blue x blue makes 25% black, 50% blue, 25% splash
(Each parent can give a blue or a not-blue gene to each chick. Some some chicks get blue from each parent and look splash, some get not-blue from each parent and look black, and some get blue from one parent with not-blue from the other parent and look blue)



But in addition to the blue gene, if you start by breeding a white chicken to a black chicken, you also have the genes that made that chicken white.

There are several different genes that can cause white in chickens. Depending on which one is present, you might get white chicks in the first generation and some black/blue/splash when you cross them back to black again. If that happens, once the white is gone, it stays gone.

But you might get colored (not-white) chicks in the first generation, and have whites pop up again in later generations (recessive white). Getting rid of that gene is harder, because a chicken can carry the recessive gene without showing it. To cull every chicken who carries the recessive gene, you have to test-mate each colored chicken to a white one and see if it produces any white offspring, then cull the ones that do. Or you could just live with the gene and have a few whites pop up on occasion.

Is there anyone who knows how I can get this color? Maybe as stable as I can, unless since black/white is technically a black bird I never can. I don’t know how you’d get straight blue from a blue wheaten.

Start with solid blacks, and cross on time to a chicken that has the gene for blue, no matter what other colors that chicken has. Pick a chick that shows blue, and cross back to solid black. Repeat until you've got the results you want. You will still be dealing with black/blue/splash, but you should be able to get them producing just those colors, with no whites or wheatens or blue wheatens or whatever other color/pattern you used to get the blue gene in the first place.

If you want barring as well, then you will have both barring and blue to keep track of in your breeding program.

 

[Oldegarlicshnapp]

Thank you so much for the thorough explanation. Sorry about the autocorrect mishap, I can’t see well out of an eye (cataract) so small text goes under my radar. Autocorrect gets me all the time! Thanks for understanding.

So to affirm an understanding (and I’ve taken many screenshots of your response to follow this like a Bible):

I can cross a blue wheaten such as this to get a solid blue without the red parts?

And I can cross a splash like this with a black to get a blue?

I don’t know the genetics behind the whites people I purchase from, so I think these methods will be better. I’ll be sure to focus on blues before incorporating the bars.

Also, is there any media you recommend for learning about fowl genetics? I’d love to know where you’ve picked up on this information.

 

[NatJ]

Thank you so much for the thorough explanation. Sorry about the autocorrect mishap, I can’t see well out of an eye (cataract) so small text goes under my radar. Autocorrect gets me all the time! Thanks for understanding.

I think by now, autocorrect happens just as often as actual mixups about what word to use, so I tried to play it safe by answering both ways.

So to affirm an understanding (and I’ve taken many screenshots of your response to follow this like a Bible):

I can cross a blue wheaten such as this to get a solid blue without the red parts?

Yes, that cross should give you solid blacks and solid blue, with about equal numbers of each.

There may be red leakage in the feathers as the chicks grow up. It will be much less red than the wheaten shows, but you will probably have to cross back to black for another generation or two before you get really nice red-free birds. The genes for an all-black bird are mostly dominant, so you might get Wheatens popping up occasionally in the future. Choosing to breed from birds with no leakage (when you have them) will help with getting rid of the recessive genes for Wheaten.

And I can cross a splash like this with a black to get a blue?

Yes, that should give only blues.

(Repeat of the above warning about leakage.)

I don’t know the genetics behind the whites people I purchase from, so I think these methods will be better. I’ll be sure to focus on blues before incorporating the bars.

That sounds like a reasonable way to do it.

Also, is there any media you recommend for learning about fowl genetics? I’d love to know where you’ve picked up on this information.

I've been picking up bits and pieces for years.
I think these are some of the main sources:

Some came from here:
http://kippenjungle.nl/sellers/page0.html
(Has links to three pages: basic genetics, some info on chicken genetics, table of genes)

Some came from here:
http://www.kippenjungle.nl/chickengenetics/pdf/Poultry_Genetics_for_Exhibition_Breeders.pdf

Some came from playing with the chicken calculator here:
http://kippenjungle.nl/chickencalculator.html
You can change the genes in the dropdown boxes, and the picture of the chicken will change too. It also can calculate offspring from a cross, but I mostly just use it to model what genes do what on the main page.

The default shows the genes found in the wild Red Junglefowl ancestors of chickens. In the dropdown lists, each of those is marked with +

To model the Blue Wheaten or Splash Wheaten chicken in the photos, you would change only these genes:
e+/e+ duckwing to E^Wh/E^Wh wheaten
bl+/bl+ to Bl/bl+ blue or to Bl/Bl splash

To change the Blue Wheaten chicken to the color you want, the main change is:
E^Wh/E^Wh wheaten to E/E extended black.

And then if you add barring (B/B male or B/- female), you've got the bird you really want.

If you cross an all-black bird (E/E) to a wheaten, the first generation chicks will be E/E^Wh.
Breeding back to E/E will give some E/E and some E/E^Wh.
Leakage can happen for any of those genetic types, but will probably be less on the birds that do not carry Wheaten.

I forget where I learned about Punnett Squares for gene inheritance, but that's how I usually model things in my own mind as I figure out the various genetic combinations. (I only draw them on paper if I get stuck-- which happened more at first, and less as I improved with practice.)
Here's one article about them, with chicken-specific examples, including the various combinations of black/blue/splash:
https://www.backyardchickens.com/articles/punnett-squares-easy-genetics.49012/

 

[Oldegarlicshnapp]

Wonderful! Thank you so very much. Quick last question: would I need to breed two blues to make the color as stable as it can be?

 

[NatJ]

would I need to breed two blues to make the color as stable as it can be?

I don't think it will make much difference whether you breed two blues, or blue x black, or blue x splash, or black x splash.

You can probably get all the other traits breeding true, and will just be stuck with the black/blue/splash genetics.




Unless you want to look into the lavender gene, sometimes called "self blue." It's a recessive gene that dilutes black to a light gray color, and does breed true. It also dilutes red to a pale yellow color, but that would have no effect on your project. I have no idea whether it is available in your breed. If you have to use a very different breed to get a gene you want, it would take a lot more years and work to get the other traits back where you want them.

Here's a page with photos of lavender cuckoo Orpingtons (genes E/E for black, lav/lav for lavender, B/B or B/- for barring)
http://www.orpingtonchickens.co.uk/product/lavender-cuckoo-orpington/

 

[JacinLarkwell]

Wonderful! Thank you so very much. Quick last question: would I need to breed two blues to make the color as stable as it can be?

It will never be stable in thar 100% of the chicks will be blue unless you breed black to splash

 

[Oldegarlicshnapp]

It will never be stable in thar 100% of the chicks will be blue unless you breed black to splash

You think it’s best to breed splash x black over black x blue wheaten?

 

[JacinLarkwell]

I guess? I don't do wheaten.

 

[NatJ]

It will never be stable in thar 100% of the chicks will be blue unless you breed black to splash

I think this is talking about whether the final birds could consistently reproduce chicks like themselves, not about what cross to make as the first step to develop them.