Not an Emergency...Marek's in the Flock

[ochochicas]

The vaccine is like weak exposure in a way, but it is also exposure to something that will not cause disease and kill the bird. It would be nice to know how much exposure is safe, and how much the chicks need to actually develop the disease. It is repeated exposure that causes disease, or is it the right dose of virus combined with a compromised immune system? Why do some chicks get sick and others remain healthy even though they were all hatched and raised together in the same exact environment? So many unanswered questions...

Whether I like it or not, it seems I may answering some of these questions through trial and error with my flock. I will keep detailed records of all the chick I hatch to document their treatments and level of exposure in addition to outcomes.

 

[seminolewind]

LOL Ochochicas, we're all practicing trial and error, sometimes inadvertently . I think alot depends on the concentration of the exposure and the strength of the bird's immune system, sortof how fast it can produce enough antibodies. It may also have something to do with who's actively shedding nice ripe viral dander . Not knowing I had it, I had several hatches that nothing happened. But I noticed that a chicken that was 8-12 months old would waste away for no reason every few months.

Like Haunted and I have said it's like fighting a ghost. Even with HIV, some get it, some don't. And no one knows who will eventually develop AIDS. That's the way I think of Marek's. It may be like a Herpes virus. But it sure seems to act more like HIV , and along with AIDS, they get paralysis and tumors. With Marek's I think the most important thing that really hit me was the immunosuppression they can have with paralysis and tumors or not. Which makes me fight like heck when they seem to be wasting because it might be some nasty infection.

 

[Sonya9]

This is just IMO but I think the vaccines and the actual virus are two different things when it comes to chicks. The vaccine virus is modified life, meaning the immune system will get a massive wave of it and react with no risk of the that modified virus overcoming the bird.

I suspect exposure to the ACTUAL marek's virus is a different situation entirely, most likely it is subtle enough to start infecting cells before the immune system realizes what is happening and stops it. Once it is inside cells it is disguised and can reproduce at will. Fact is exposure to the real virus will kill off some and ultimately create natural resistance in flocks over a few generations whereas vaccination does the opposite, it protects the most susceptible and encourages overall weakness and susceptibility in flocks.

I read somewhere that Herpes viruses have been around for a REALLY long time, really long as in they were around before mammals even existed.

And on the topic of disease, I recently watched a documentary about antibiotic resistant bacteria strains in India (where conditions are filthy and antibiotics are constantly used improperly). Anyway, researchers discovered that extremely deadly forms of antibiotic resistant bacteria could actually SHARE their resistance with different TYPES of bacteria in the environment. An example would be a highly resistant bacteria that ends up in a puddle on the street full of other germs, it was sharing the dna that made it resistant with other completely unrelated types of bacteria in the puddle.

 

[mightymax]

@ochochicas ... The answer is 'D' ...all of the above...lol !!!


@Sonya9 ... In your first paragraph did you mean to say that a 'virus' is modified life? Or did you intend it to be a 'vaccine' is a modified life? Just curious,

 

[Sonya9]

@ochochicas ... The answer is 'D' ...all of the above...lol !!!


@Sonya9 ... In your first paragraph did you mean to say that a 'virus' is modified life? Or did you intend it to be a 'vaccine' is a modified life? Just curious,

Yeah I meant the virus in the vaccine is modified live, just edited the post to correct that.

 

[mightymax]

The funny thing about the immune system is that they don't make nice neighbors. They don't like it when some wayward germ comes wandering around their territory.
The immediately call a spade a spade and identify the roving critter as foreign and immediately launch their attack. They don't sit back and what for the next town hall
meeting in order to get the supervisor's approval to launch a defense. No, they immediately go about replicating their chosen weapons, usually an arsenal of leukocytes.
It's way too late for me to go into detail right now but I'd be happy to do so in the morning (when the sun's out !!!).
Until then.

goodnight myeloid and lymphoid !!!

-kim-

 

[Sonya9]

The funny thing about the immune system is that they don't make nice neighbors. They don't like it when some wayward germ comes wandering around their territory. The immediately call a spade a spade and identify the roving critter as foreign and immediately launch their attack. They don't sit back and what for the next town hall meeting in order to get the supervisor's approval to launch a defense. No, they immediately go about replicating their chosen weapons, usually an arsenal of leukocytes.It's way too late for me to go into detail right now but I'd be happy to do so in the morning (when the sun's out !!!).
Until then.

goodnight myeloid and lymphoid !!!

-kim-

Well it is pretty apparent that many wayward strange germs DO manage to infect and the immune system frequently doesn't have the right soldiers to fend it off.

Vaccines create an army of the right soldiers so when that same (or similar) offending germ comes along again they can kill it with overhwhelming force before it takes over.

Exposing unvaccinated chicks to the actual marek's virus means their immune system isn't prepared, and by the time it starts to get antibodies/soldiers to fight off the invader it is too late.

 

[Nambroth]

Chicken Pox, Mumps, Measles and Polio, are all diseases that are viral and for which we have found a 'cure'.

Absolutely right, I wasn't thinking straight when I wrote that. My apologizes!

 

[Nambroth]

Fact is exposure to the real virus will kill off some and ultimately create natural resistance in flocks over a few generations whereas vaccination does the opposite, it protects the most susceptible and encourages overall weakness and susceptibility in flocks.

I disagree. There are too many factors to make this claim, and it is one of the arguments I see come up again and again against the vaccination. It all depends on the strain of Marek's and the vaccine used.

The more virulent the virus, the less effective the vaccine will be, even in strong birds.
Often, weak birds will succumb even with the vaccine, via immunosupression. In reality, I have experienced this, and I know several of you have as well. Our sickly birds are... well, just sickly, vaccine or not.
I think that some people can have healthy, stronger, more resistant flocks with OR without the vaccine-- just as people can have weaker, more susceptible flocks with or without the vaccine.... it depends on the genetics of the birds, the virus strain, and many other variables, just like in any other population. What I am saying is, I think that the goal of having a resistant flock should not be an important deciding factor when choosing to vaccinate (or not). I would hate for someone to read this and think that they are dooming their flock to overall weakness on the long term if they choose to vaccinate.

Anyhow, I don't wish to argue so I will leave it at that.

 

[mightymax]

That's the funny thing about seeing things in only black and white...the contrasts are so apparent. -mightymax-


Quote:
Exactly which vaccine are you referring to as being "modified life", because even if you meant modified 'live' instead of 'life', is still wouldn't exist. There are several
vaccines currently available for use on chickens, and I don't recall a modified one ever being mentioned. Recombinant, bivalent, attenuated...yes. Modified...no.

Also, there's no such thing as a 'no risk' vaccine. They are, by their own definition, inherently dangerous. If you've ever had the experience of being with a
person who was highly allergic to bee stings, get stung and not have their EpiPen handy, you'd understand what I'm talking about. Yes, vaccines can stop the spread of deadly diseases. But remember, they are their own worst enemy, for they are the deadly disease. So if that cute little baby chicken you're vaccinating just happens to
have a nasty reaction to it and dies...I would not consider that to be a 'no risk' scenario.



Quote:
Not always. While I'll concede that knowing your opponents plan of attack can be the ultimate coup de grace, there are oftentimes more imposing factors to consider when doing battle with an adversary that you've already conquered. They will have adapted new ways to circumvent your onslaught of attacks. Surprisingly little is learned by the warriors that win. It's usually the losers that gain the most knowledge and when they suit up to do battle again, you can be certain of one thing...they will not fail the same way twice.





Quote:

Well it is pretty apparent that many wayward strange germs DO manage to infect and the immune system frequently doesn't have the right soldiers to fend it off

While that indeed may be pretty apparent to everyone here, I find it really apparent that the dialect of your army is doublespeak.



Quote:


The immune system's ability to fight off infection isn't like learning to ride a bike...there are no training wheels to assist your navigation. Nor does it work like a new pair of shoes...it doesn't have a break in period where it slowly and gently adapts to the ever changing surface of your feet. To the contrary, the immune system arrives on the scene ready to fight and with an arsenal of weapons to die for, it doesn't have to warm up like an old, decrepit car.


-kim-