Oriental Gamefowl Thread!

[DTchickens]

All gamefowl turn aggressive past a certain age; towards other birds (not people, at least no more than any other breed).

If you're wanting small Orientals, KO Shamo, maybe a Tuzo, and Asil will do it for you I think. Asil mostly are small in the US (but don't expect bantam size, they're just not as large as the other breeds typically), there are some big ones but not the norm; KO Shamo are cute little show fowl that are becoming quite popular. You might also check into Bantam Shamo, Bantam Malays, etc.. If you favor the large breeds but want something smaller.

On the Shamo X RIR. I've seen some large RIR, but Shamo are in general taller in my experience; weight wise about the same. RIR's are stocky, their weight is all in their large bodies.

 

[Lollipop]

yea, it's hard to figure out what you really want. Do you mean to say that shamo turn aggressive?

They are extrememly aggressive to other fowl, but seldom to humans.

What line of asil would be good to consider since I want something small? do you consider Tuzos asils? and any poultry shows have oriental gamefowl?

I personally consider Tuzos to be Asils, having black spurs and somewhat smaller than Rampuris, which they are almost identical to. Any of the Reza (small ones, under 3 kg or 6.6lbs) would be ideal. None of them are cheap and I would be quite concerned about predators with free ranging birds. They aren't good layers and every egg is precious. Good luck in your quest.......Pop

 

[fowlsessed]

ok, yea that's what I meant, aggressive toward people. I would probably keep them up until my numbers increased to where it wouldn't be detrimental if I lost one. How are the asils personality? I thought from every thing that I've read the shamo were among the best in that aspect. Do american games have the typical famed oriental temperament? All the one around here that I've seen are man fighters.

 

[pride&joy]

My opinion posted was not of Shamo as a whole, there are plenty of birds in Japan and other countries and even Suzann Chung's birds I have heard are the real deal. I also tried to make sure I specified "In my experience with the Jim Zook stock-" these birds came from Prariechiken which came from Jim Zook directly, I have the hen that PC got directly from Jim Zook. The other birds are offspring out of her and the cock which came from Jim Zook.

The resulting blood is 100% Jim Zook on the hen and the offspring are Jim Zook, William Roberts, and Dr. Sapaphor blood which came from Zook and Zook told me he has never crossed anything into his birds but kept the line pure without adding anything since his father got the line in the 1940's. I cannot find anything on the Dr. Sapaphor blood, no one knows him. Is that where the runners come from? I don't know. But I know that the blood is from Jim Zook and they are considered Jim Zook Shamo. I know that all three cocks have showed degrees of non-gameness (Two cocks ran from an American game cock at the age of 17+ months which was on tie. No birds take that long to mature, I was told the longest a Shamo should take is about 15-16 months and even then they should not have ran that quick and if they were game later on they shouldn't have been able to be around them but they are still terrified to date of them at about 3 years old).

So from my experience, I cannot say that Jim Zook's birds are game. Are some game? Well, one cock still cannot be allowed around American Game. I will admit that, but I have seen enough from him too over my experiences (not even having to fight them) to realize they are not game. It is likely anyway that the two brothers being non-game will result in him more than likely not being game.

I said that your bird at that age can get scared, my AG are game; I believe you've read my posts on UF to understand what I mean- but most at 5 months are not ready to show which is why I said the Sumatra had to have some age and weight on him to be able to take that Shamo because he shouldn't have been able to. Now that the bird has been afraid, if he is anything like the blood I have out of Will Roberts/Jim Zook, he won't face again or he won't be able to hold his courage to the Sumatra cock regardless of age; that would make him not game. I'm not saying he isn't now, I'm just saying if; you can only watch him as he grows and see.

I have watched these cocks free range and stand within 1 foot of each other just staring and never even peck at each other (they will not do this in pens, in pens they are much more aggressive and I commonly have to check to make sure they stay out of trouble) and the same two cocks one had been raised on my yard while the other was with PC so they did not recognize each other either.

That being said, I do not put any blame on PC. PC was straight up with me and he is a good and honest guy, I put nothing negative towards him at all. He didn't know I'm sure otherwise he would have told me so and the Shamo were fairly new to him (hence, all birds are first generation). But personally I will tell people that the Jim Zook blood isn't game in my experience regardless and when people ask for game Shamo I tell them to look up Suzann Chung based off of what I have heard of her birds and because I know who and where they came from (Julia Keeling).

Again: I spoke directly on Jim Zook's birds in my experience, I based my knowledge off of three different cocks (which truly, when three different cocks are a little iffy I question the whole line; Jim Zook may have different lines though that I and no one else knows about since people just specify "Jim Zook Shamo" and to my knowledge the birds do not have any identification except color. So you may have a game line and mine may not be, but given that you never know what you're getting and you could get one or the other from Jim Zook I do not suggest him or Will Roberts for game Shamo since their fowl is the same and they swap brood stock to my knowledge. I suggest Suzann Chung).

On a lighter note, the Jim Zook Shamo are awesome birds in terms of personality; general healthiness, and looks. So if someone were looking for a Shamo for show or a neat yard fowl I would suggest the Jim Zook line. Just not in the case of them being gamefowl. Due to their like ability that would be why I never culled them, I was tempted, but I didn't. They are all going to a friend in Oklahoma I imagine you all or most of you know (one pair was her's anyway and she is well aware of the whole situation). Another cock went to someone else to fulfill my word I gave and to help her out.

We did discuss this through email at one point which I believe you even agreed with me and stated the cocks were not game. And for the record even might I add, Jim Zook is a nice guy; I've spoken with him and say nothing negative of him, himself. I just say that in terms of game Shamo (which people always told me the Zook line was) I was left with great disappointment. If they had just been game enough where they showed gameness on the yard I would have been alright with keeping them... But when I watch a three year old cock run from a HEN because he is hen pecked while feeding I'm ready to get the hatchet out. Literally, run, I had to separate the two because she ran him so badly he started to lose weight. I don't care if they are a game, leghorn, or Kraienköppe; if the cock can't handle a hen (that was about two or three pounds smaller than he) he is soup on my yard (I really would have souped him much more quickly, had it not been for other people that liked him simply as a pet).

God bless,
Daniel.

OK Daniel, I must say that I have come to the same conclusion as to the Zook/Roberts shamo. I will also agree with you that both are gentlemen and general nice folks. The birds I got are very correct physically and healthy. However I do not believe them to carry that specific trait that would make them game fowl. thankfully my other line of Shamo does not suffer the same flaw. This is all really a non-issue with the current legal conditions, but for me personally and with a nostalgic eye on the great old days. I have trouble preserving game fowl that is not game. They do make nice lawn ornaments and their size and personalities make them conversation pieces. Maybe one day I will get with Walt for some of that West Coast Shamo love. For now with feed going up, pen space is down. Not having another line of chickens to work with is ok by me.

 

[Lollipop]

ok, yea that's what I meant, aggressive toward people. I would probably keep them up until my numbers increased to where it wouldn't be detrimental if I lost one. How are the asils personality? I thought from every thing that I've read the shamo were among the best in that aspect. Do american games have the typical famed oriental temperament? All the one around here that I've seen are man fighters.

Most orientals are man friendly and easy to handle. Of course those that don't get handled much will resist, but generally tame right down once in your hands. I have no experience with American Games, but some with Spanish. Every cocker I ever knew would cull a manfighter as quickly as it apeared. Can you imagine sitting down a heeled cock and have him come back at you? Not a pretty picture.........Pop

 

[welasharon]

Ish the cock I got from you is game for sure. Sometimes it would be easier if he wasn't but I manage as I knew when I decided to get o shamo that that is how they are. It's working for me but then since I am not breeding them it is not particulary an issue. Somehow it just doesnt' seem right to have them not game since that is part of what they are or have always been.

 

[fowlsessed]

Most orientals are man friendly and easy to handle. Of course those that don't get handled much will resist, but generally tame right down once in your hands. I have no experience with American Games, but some with Spanish. Every cocker I ever knew would cull a manfighter as quickly as it apeared. Can you imagine sitting down a heeled cock and have him come back at you? Not a pretty picture.........Pop

Well, these guys aren't cockers, just cheap fighters....anyway, I was set on shamo and now you have me thinking on asil. This is never ending

the asil sure are a lot more popular though.

 

[fowlman01]

Well, these guys aren't cockers, just cheap fighters....anyway, I was set on shamo and now you have me thinking on asil. This is never ending

the asil sure are a lot more popular though.

I raise both Asils and Shamo's. I like both. I have a three year old Shamo here that is 17 lbs to answer your size question. Not all strains of Shamo's get this big. The APA says a cock should be 11 lbs..hen 7 lbs.

Walt

 

[fowlsessed]

WOW, but that's weight. Is there SIZE that big. as in tall?

 

[fowlman01]

WOW, but that's weight. Is there SIZE that big. as in tall?

That bird is 32" tall.

Walt